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Bret Victor The Future of Programming

Open on YouTube First HN thread

12 HN users recommended this talk in 11 different months between 2017 and 2026.

2007–2026
5 strong recommendations 7 recommendations 8 citations HackerTube score 13

HN treats it as a classic, near-mandatory talk on how programming tools and paradigms stagnated and which older ideas deserve revival.

Bret Victor's DBX 2013 talk, delivered in the guise of a 1973 IBM engineer with an overhead projector. It surveys forgotten ideas from 1960s and early 70s computing and warns against assuming you know what you're doing.

Pull quote: “Take a look and you will be amazed of how good (or revolutionary by our standards) some old technologies were.” (HN, 2018)

Also tagged: history and future of programming, bret victor, programming paradigms, computing history, tooling, software stagnation

What Hacker News said

20 labeled comments from the HN archive; up to 20 are kept per video, favoring different commenters. Each one links back to the original thread.

Strongly recommends diegojromero August 2018 under Ask HN: What is the future of programming?
Shows how good and revolutionary some old technologies were.
'The future of Programming' by Bret Victor ( [this video] ). Seems a pun about OP title but it really is related with his/her question. Take a look and you will be amazed of how good (or revolutionary by our standards) some old technologies were.
Strongly recommends corysama January 2021 under The Great Software Stagnation
Classic talk on how programming has stagnated.
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Lots of cynic-cynics in here :) I'll stand up for the author. The lists in the article are not great, but I still agree with the sentiment. I recommend everyone watch Bret Victor's classic "The Future of Programming" [this video] Yes, we've had a trillion dollars invested in "How to run database servers at scale". And, we've had some incremental improvements to the C++ish language ecosystem. We've effectively replaced Perl with Python. That's nice. Deep Learning has been a major invention. Probably the most revolutionary I can think of in the past couple decades. But, what do I do in Visual Studio 2019 that is fundamentally different than what I was doing in Borland Turbo Pascal back on my old 286? C++20 is more powerful. Intellisense is nice. Edit-and-continue worked 20 years ago and most programmers still don't use it. If you are super awesome, you might use a reversible debugger. That's still fringe science these days. There is glacial momentum in the programming community. A lot of "grep and loose, flat ASCII files were good enough for my grandpappy. I can't accept anything different" And, so we don't have code-as-database. A lot of "I grew up learning how to parse curly bracket blocks. So, I can't accept anything different". So, so many languages try to look like C and are mostly flavors of the same procedural-OO-bit-of-functional paradigm. A lot of "GDB is terrible, don't even try" so many programmers are in reverse-stockholm system where they have convinced themselves debug
Strongly recommends thangalin January 2021 under Why can't I write code inside my browser?
Walks through how the concept of programming evolved in small leaps.
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Bret Victor's, "The Future of Programming" is illuminating. He walks through what "programming" means and how the concept of "programming" has shifted in little evolutionary leaps. [this video] "There can be a lot of resistance to new ways of working that require you to unlearn what you've already learned and think in new ways. ... And there can even be outright hostility." Programming Baduk used to involve expert systems. Now convolutional neural networks (CNNs) can hoist a computer to superhuman performance, even doing so without pre-programmed rules (see MuZero). We no longer "program" computers to play Go, chess, shogi, or even Atari games. Some people have difficulty keeping code structures in their mind's eye. Here's a conceptual development environment for navigating code visually, ending with a dual text editor: [link] Is that programming? What's the difference between _typing_ instructions into a computer to place a graphical user interface widget on a screen and _telling_ the computer you'd like to put a toroid on the screen? Computers can use CNNs to fill in knowledge gaps. Even though the computer wasn't told the colour, size, shading, material, or location of the toroid, it can still show us the ring. Is telling a holodeck that you'd like to replay a scene from a novel a form of programming? [link] Each evolutionary step in programming has given us more powerful ways to express ideas in ever terser forms. Few people code in binary anymore. Did Picard need to tell the
Strongly recommends ulkesh July 2023 under Bret Victor: Update July 2023
Insight into how Bret Victor thinks; a great talk.
If you haven't yet seen this video, please do: [this video] (Bret Victor The Future of Programming) This won't tell you who he is, exactly, but it does give insight into how he thinks. And it's a pretty great talk, in my opinion.
Recommends namuol April 2018 under You Can’t Do Data Science in a GUI
Brief history of programmers' poor progress in tooling.
Yes, healthy skepticism is good, but just because code (i.e. text files) is often the most _powerful_ or _flexible_ tool, doesn't mean it's always the best tool. We (programmers) are notoriously bad at advancing the tools in our field. For a brief history of this, watch "The Future of Programming" talk by Bret Victor: [this video]
Recommends veli_joza June 2018 under Programming Paradigms and Beyond [pdf]
Covers groundbreaking paradigms that have since become mostly forgotten.
Good read. I feel the title should be "Teaching Programming Paradigms and Beyond" since the text assumes familiarity with complete CS landscape and comments on success of several teaching methods. I would recommend (also misleadingly titled) talk The Future of Programming by Bret Victor [1] which goes over some groundbreaking paradigms that have since become mostly forgotten. [1] [this video]
Performance piece set in 1973 about computing history.
Related thread: `Ask HN: What's the best book on the early history of the Internet and/or Web?` [link] My previous reco: Not a book, but a great video via Steve Blank: [link] Also `Bret Victor The Future of Programming`, which is misleading as above is performance piece where title slide reads `1973` [this video]
Argues for experimenting beyond the current state of the art.
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PeerJ has actually quite a few publications, one of them is CS ;) [link] the dropdown on the top left allows you to switch between them. I think MathJax is certainly a step in the right direction, they even support rendering to MathML. But I agree that there is a certain lack there in terms of full semantic representations. MathJax is more accessible than TeX but it's still describing visual layout, instead of semantic meaning. Pushing HTML to arxiv is also a step into the right direction. I think the most important thing we can do is not be complacent with the state of the art. We need to go back to an age of computing where we didn't think we had it all figured out. We need to experiment, and not be afraid to take a step back in some aspects, like layout and kerning, in exchange for other advances like semantic representations and knowledge representation. I think bred victor has a great talk on this: [this video] I think we need to experiment with things like observablehq.com or nextjournal.com or the many other that are coming into existence.
Recommends yesenadam January 2023 under Ask HN: Has anyone fully attempted Bret Victor's vision?
Among talks by the most frequently praised HN tech speaker.
For the people asking who is Bret Victor: When "What are your favourite tech talks of all time?" is asked on HN, he gets more mentions than anyone else, usually. Some of his talks: Inventing on Principle [link] The Future of Programming [this video] The Humane Representation of Thought [link] Media for Thinking the Unthinkable [link] Seeing Spaces [link] Drawing Dynamic Visualizations [link] [link]
Recommends awongh November 2024 under Choose Boring Technology and LLMs
Argues we can improve 60-year-old programming paradigms.
I was more thinking about the blocked progress of true innovation in the way programming languages are made and used. This is the talk I referenced above: [this video] I agree with his main thesis which is that we can do better to improve on some of these literally 60 year old programming and programming tooling paradigms. I'm hoping that the paradigm improvement isn't to just paste over the entire endeavour with some AI agents that abstract away coding as we currently think about it.

Citations, criticism and jokes

Cites it comboy May 2017 under Kotlin Is Better
Cited as mandatory viewing on how programming tools regressed.
Oh Delphi.. every time I fight with CSS and think about how easy making GUI apps used to be almost 20(sic!) years ago, I feel like something went wrong. Mandatory: [this video]
Cites forgotten 1960s ideas not integrated into the trade.
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Programming was in its infancy 50 years ago, but in reality we don't really know what its development arc is. We could be in the toddler stage right now, or we could still be in infancy when compared to future developments in the field. I believe we are much closer to the latter. There were things being done in the 60s that we still haven't really integrated into our trade. [0] We joke about having to program with hardware switches and punch cards, yet here we are still typing carefully crafted cryptic commands that tell the computer exactly what it is supposed to do, and storing them in linear text files which we have to mentally map to program states. I think there will always be a place for this kind of programming, just as people still use Assembly today, but it's a bit premature to say, "Well, this is it, or nearly so!" I recall reading that one of the giants of early computing, Von Neumann perhaps, never understood the benefit of Assembly and thought that it was a waste of the computer's time to compile to machine code rather than have a human write the machine code directly. We are working inside a problem domain that we barely understand. I find it hard to believe that we will have the glorious sci-fi future that many of us imagine will come out of advancements in technology without also developing corresponding advancements in how we describe and create and interact with it. One potential example that I am looking forward to learning more about is Luna, which feature
Cited for the point that progress stops when we stop pursuing answers.
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The problem is we stop pursuing answers on this topic, thus stop making progress. It's basically like what Bret Victor has described in 'The Future of Programming'. [0] There were a lot of language zealots at the end of the last century, especially on evangelizing Object-Oriented Programming. Nowadays everybody can easily counter those arguments with 'No Silver Bullet' without further thinking, it's arrogance in disguise of humility. There are still a huge amount of accidental complexities to deal with in most tech stacks. Most businesses would die fast and leave nothing behind anyway, while the progression of the industry would accumulate and benefit the whole industry itself. Java looks slightly better for creating software at scale than C. C looks slightly better than FORTRAN. FORTRAN looks slightly better than machine code. Say there's a language that looks like Haskell but has tooling and ecosystems as good as Java, I believe it would also slightly better than Java. [0]: [this video]
Cites it NiceWayToDoIT September 2021 under Show HN: Time travel debugger for web development
Earlier presentation showing live debugging of a video game.
Dan Abramov 2015 [link] But there was one earlier presentation I cannot find it, guy was showing live debugging of the video game. Not sure is it TED or one of conferences ... Edit: This is it: Bred Victor: [link] 2013 Future of programming [this video]
Cites it jozsefdev December 2021 under Ask HN: What technologies will we still be using in 20 years?
Hopes Bret Victor's vision for programming comes into practice.
Bash, VIM (without knowing how to exit it). Also I hope some ideas will come into practice from Bret Victor's vision for the future of programming. [this video] I'm also curious to see when will we fully explore the programming language space. I think the possible ways to write code are finite.
Cites it LichenStone April 2022 under λ-2D: An exploration of drawing as programming language
Related to dissatisfaction with linear text as the programming format.
This is very cool. I've always been very disappointed that programming is so utterly dominated by the linear text format. It feels like so much potential for expression and feedback is getting left on the table, making use of our capacity to understand and work with spatialisation, patterns, sounds, colours, dynamics, etc would make a lot of sense. Bret Victor's The Future of Programming and other talks come to mind - [this video]
Talk touching on alternatives to von Neumann style computing.
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> and the whole history of computing is about how faster chips is an excellent answer to difficult computational problems. I don't really disagree, and I am definitely not taking their marketing pitch seriously. Yet, you could look at the same computation history and interpret it as an economically constrained hill-climbing around an idea that was simple enough to work reliably (von Neumann architecture) and that worked and scaled so well that we were rarely forced or desperate enough to move conceptually far away from it. Sufficiently general digital computers can simulate other computational models, so I think 'faster' is ultimately the end game, but for some classes of computation, as you also noted, we may need to go for analog hardware, (maybe) quantum devices, optical interconnects, and so on. Bret Victor has a talk about this, more or less: [0] [0] [this video]

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